Lived Experience Forum

[Tortoiseshell]

Hey @Historylover, that's a really interesting point about whether we get so focused in on problems and trying to resolve them and then forget about fun and cultivating that side. 

I'm hearing you are feeling so disheartened by your experiences of psychiatrists, and are really concerned about ECT as a treatment. I fully acknowledge that for some, contact with the mental health system and different professionals can be traumatic, that power can be abused, and that there are still terrible instances of people who have felt coerced around treatment and ECT. I also want to acknowledge that some people have really excellent, supportive, and holistic psychiatrists, and there are people who have benefited from ECT. It is so important to hold the mental health system and professionals to account, but also to acknowledge the variety of experiences people have. 

Warmest 

[Historylover]

@Tortoiseshell  I am one who has such respect for my body - my health - that I do not even subject it to medication if it can be avoided.  My ex-psychiatrist trained me that way.  He taught me that my health is my responsibility.  He even taught me to stay away from doctors unless it is totally necessary. Over-servicing is very damaging on a number of levels.

I grew up in an era when going to the doctor was an expense which came directly out of one's own pocket, and one only went as required because money was hard-earned and had to go a long way.  Spending it was well-considered.  (All lived long, healthy lives I might add.)  It is my opinion that today people pay so much for medical insurance that they go to the doctor for the most minor complaint and are happy when they are able to walk away with a prescription - just so they feel they are getting something from their investment in their health insurance. 

Or they go because they can be bulk-billed.  Needless consultations must abound.  I go to bulk-billed GPs because I figure that if a GP is more concerned about money than treating illness, he is not the GP for me.  

My psychiatrist also taught me not to sign what are effectively medical blank cheques.  I am referring back a number of years when an imprint was made from our Medicare card onto a billing form.  He told me NEVER to sign it until the form was completed - i.e. the item and charge completed.  I almost ALWAYS had to request the form to be completed.  Are others so naive that they do not see the potential for - dare I say it - medical fraud?  That any item can be billed and that it is our responsibility to ensure it is not.

I still see a bulk-billing GP but the system has changed.  Today, after completing my details on my initial visit, I walk in, have my consultation and walk out without any paperwork being sighted.  I have no idea what my government is being charged or for which item.  I still consider that to be my responsibility.  If those who should be doing so fail to do their job ensuring this valuable system is not abused I will not bother either.

As for ECT.  My ex-psychiatrist and I both agree that it is the sign of a psychiatrist who neither understands the nature of psychological damage nor has the ability to do what is painstakingly necessary to correct it.  Akin to leg amputation because getting the splinter out would take too much trouble.  And I expect there would be many who simply think they are better but have no idea how unnecessary the dreadful procedure was if they had a competent psychiatrist. 

No, I am not concerned about ECT myself.  My concern is that some naively think it is necessary or helpful.  I wouldn't consider it necessary for any reason on any human being.  I have too much respect for my fellow human beings, and knowledge that a skilled psychiatrist can cure most anything - with words, mostly - and medication only as required to reduce symptoms as therapy brings cure.  As I stated, I believe it is an abuse of power and control, and the mark of a psychiatrist who has no skill.  That some think they have been helped by it - perhaps they are not the best judge.  It is amazing how many people say what they know others want to hear.

As for acknowledging the variety of experiences people have - I have been observing this for many years.  I don't have blinkers on.  

[chibam]

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@Historylover wrote:

I would have thought that if psychiatrists actually worked as a team and learned from each other regarding what genuinely worked and what didn't, patients could get well and not simply get treated. They seem to think that it would damage their reputation and self-interest if they admitted even to themselves that they didn't know everything and could learn from others.  

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I think there's a lot of differant brands of badness going on there. There's a lot of self-interest and carelessness involved. When you look into it, it's appaling just how deeply in bed the leaders of the industry are with the pharmaceutical industry. Short version is that a lot of credible people believe that the mental health industry formulates it's entire world view on what "mental disorders" are, based upon what will maximize drug sales, because their (largely) in the pocket of the pharaceutical bosses.

Stumbled on this a while back, and it was a real eye-opener: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgilBaRbulc

The lower ranks of the industry (i.e. nurses, orderlies, newbie therapists, ect.) aren't given leeway to genuinely care, because they are firmly drummed in to towing the company line of the MH industry's leaders. I've read countless pieces from people in these positions stating that they've been pressured/disciplined/bullied when they started objecting to the poor treatment of their patients.

A lot of the system's critics will say that it's all about making money. It's an understandable POV; but personally, I think it's more a case of the therapists (buy and large) not wanting the patients to win. I mean think about it, they have a near-godlike power; the power to determine what these patients' lives will look like. Is it hardly surprising to see that they try to use this power to make the patients' lives look like their ideal of humanity, rather then what those patients want their lives to look like? Of course, they often don't succeed in remaking their patients in the image of their own ideal; but they'll console themselves with the knowledge that: "I got them as close as humanly possible to what is right." And the mere fact that their idea of "right" differs considderably from the patients' idea of "right" doesn't register with them, because patients are all deluded or "lacking insight", so what they want for themselves isn't relevant.

Therapists all too frequently see themselves as masters, not servants of the distressed.

But I don't know, maybe that perception of the problem is tainted by my own broader situation. I can't deny that if I recieved omnipotent power to shape society - and the people within it, that I would be tempted to create a community full of people that I would connect to and want to immerse myself in. So maybe that taints my assumptions about how and why therapists use their powers to reshape the lives of their patients'. I think we all want to look at the world around us and be surrounded by a society that we can relate to and appreciate. Maybe I'm naieve, but I suspect that desire is even more compelling then peoples' desire for money.

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@Historylover wrote:

By the way, I was heartened to read that you also think ECT is barbaric.  I consider it the mark of a psychiatrist abusing his power, his control over another, and having no idea of how to deal with the matters before him.

ECT is definitely overused and the fact that it is used at all without consent, or via coersion of the patient is appalling.

But I don't like dealing in absolutes. If there are people out there who will attest that they consentually recieved ECT and their pleased with the results (I must say I've never met one), then I have no grounds to argue with them. It's not my place to dictate or judge how other people go about their lives, because that would give others license to dictate and judge how I live my life.

All I can do is state firmly that that "treatment" is not for me, and fight to insure that my wishes in that matter will never, ever be violated by the powers that be.

@Historylover wrote:

@chibam Just wondering - do you think that we have simply forgotten how to live and to have fun?

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For my 2 cents, I think that I've maintained a fairly decent grasp on how to live and have fun; but nobody around me seems to have done so. Which means I'm just trapped all alone with this awareness of how to make a good life. And loneliness isn't fun. Life is a multiplayer game by nature and it's no good having all this awareness about all the fun stuff you could get up to with a companion, when in reality your just trapped by yourself. Playing solitaire can be a distraction; but it isn't fun, and it isn't life-affirming.

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@Historylover wrote:

Talking about problems doesn't seem to help me - it is not fixing anything.  I'm not talking about pretending we don't have them - but is that all there is to our lives?  Have we simply become habituated to talking about problems because that way we have something in common?  If talking about our problems doesn't help - what actually does?  How DO we help each other?

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If the me from 20 years ago could see myself now, he would be appalled. It seems all I've ever done with my life is to "talk" pointlessly about my dillemma - to senselessly inflict my misery upon others. These are not my values. I was always determined to insure that my impact upon the world would be positive; that it would brighten and uplift the lives of the people who were exposed to me.

But that's a surprisingly hard thing to do when life seemingly works against you at every turn.

Round about the time I started floundering, there was this bombardment in the media about how people in crisis ought to talk to others about their dillemmas. Counter-intuitive as that has always been for me, I had no other cards left to play and I eventually caved under the weight of all that media (and subsequent community) peer pressure to "talk".

As you say, it's not helpful; and, IMHO, it's a public health hazard. Not only is my talking not benefitting me in the slightest, it's also inflicting my misery on others and is bringing them a little bit more down then they would've been had I kept my mouth shut.

But as you say, I think I've just gotten into a dirty habit of it. I try limiting my complaints and appeals for help to those who may actually be in a position to accomplish something meaningful (not that any of them ever do). But I fear I may have gotten too used to being a complainer, and have gotten into the habit of airing my woes far more freely then is appropriate or even remotely beneficial.

So how do we get the actual help we need? I wish I knew!

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@Historylover wrote:

My psychiatrist also taught me not to sign what are effectively medical blank cheques.  I am referring back a number of years when an imprint was made from our Medicare card onto a billing form.  He told me NEVER to sign it until the form was completed - i.e. the item and charge completed.  I almost ALWAYS had to request the form to be completed.  Are others so naive that they do not see the potential for - dare I say it - medical fraud?  That any item can be billed and that it is our responsibility to ensure it is not.

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When I was in therapy with my really bad therapist, the program that gives you Medicare discounts on therapy sessions came in. And throughout my time in therapy the government cranked up the amount of discount they provided about three or four times. And each time they did that, about a month or so later, my therapist would crank up her fees by pretty much the same amount; meaning that even though the government had raised the amount of money it was paying for my therapy, we were still paying the same amount ourselves.

My undestanding is that the whole idea of cranking up that discount amount was to make therapy more affordable to people who needed it. How the hell could it make it more affordable if the therapist keeps raising her fees to match the discount?

I'd almost forgotten about that little tidbit of my therapy, TBH. I'm finding these days that the more I reflect on what happened during my treatment - by both my therapists - the more I notice how surprisingly crooked they were.

This is one of the things that really depresses me about the state of affairs in this country ATM, because none of the major inquiries into the MH system are seriously looking into the crooked side of the system; not just the fraud, but the harms, abuses and neglect. They don't want to put the system on trial. They want to gently remedy it's dissatisfying outcomes without actually acknowledging that the system is rife with willful mistreatment and misconduct. They (supposedly) want to stop the crimes while still allowing the criminals to slink off with their dignity and reputations intact.

I just can't see how they can possibly accomplish that with an industry that's so rife with corruption. In order to eliminate corruption (or even limit), you first have to acknowledge that it exists! But the inquiries going on ATM don't want to do that. They claim that it's all about "focussing on the future and not dwelling on the past", but I suspect it's more about them not having the guts to take on the powerful players in the MH system, or to take on the task of upheaving the system to the degree that would be necessary to significantly root out the corruption.

[Whitehawk]

Hi @chibam 

I am interested in your opinion that the Mental Health is rife with corruption and that nobody will take on the powerful players. I feel compelled to point out, as Toroiseshell did earlier, that people do get real help from mental health professionals whatever the failings in the system, and there are many. A real pleasure in being a moderator of the SANE forums is to  be able to read the positive accounts of many members about how they have been helped towards recovery by a range of MH professions including psychiatry, and that talking can help.

cheers

Whitehawk

Moderator

[chibam]

@WhitehawkYes, I'm not denying that there are success stories in there. But the system is rife with harm and wrongdoing (I have talked to many victims of it; read scores of statements from others. Even read statements from whistleblower therapists who admit how prevalent badness is within the system), and I believe that needs to be acknowledged.

Ideally, whatever change may come will preserve whatever works for the people who have been pleased with the system's service, while delivering the massive reform needed for those who have been harmed - and those who will be harmed in the future, unless the system is corrected.

[Historylover]

@Tortoiseshell 

I would be grateful if someone could help me to work out how to use quotes from others' posts.  

I think one of the main problems in the system generally - certainly for me - is that people think they understand what I am saying to them, but have only placed their own interpretation on my words based on their own experiences.  I sense their misinterpretation immediately and often find little point in constantly clarifying.  They simply aren't receptive.  People need to take the time to really listen to others' words - not assume they understand.  Truly understanding can take time and constant readjustment.

You say that you hear that I am "feeling so disheartened by my experiences of psychiatrists".  You misheard.

Many, many years ago I suffered such severe Depression that I had lost the will to live - not in the sense of being suicidal, but in the sense of losing all vitality, living like a robot, going through the motions when necessary and hibernating under a blanket for the rest of the time - very dark times. I sought psychiatric treatment and was referred to a psychiatrist with whom I 'clicked' immediately.

I was a mess.  Besides Depression, I had no direction and was quite lost.  I had no self-esteem, no self-confidence and no self-respect.  I was new to the state, had no broader family here and no friends.  My own family was floundering, simply taking one direction then another - and pretending we knew what we were doing had 'hit the wall'.  I had no idea who I was - I was a different person each time I interacted with a different person or group - trying to fit in.  I simply adapted to the pigeon-hole they put me in in that particular interaction.  But that wasn't who I was. 

Over the following years my psychiatrist took the time to understand.  It came naturally to him to do so.  He was meticulous in his work.  He knew that what he had been taught about so-called 'mental illness' was incorrect - and that personalities warp and twist according to their intra-family/lineal conditioning, their experiences and their inter-personal relationships generally.  Their particular trauma. 

He 'unpicked' my damaged personality and rebuilt me - not to whom he thought I should be, but whom I had the potential to be.  Over time, my Depression lifted - with as little medication as was necessary until none was.  I have not had another bout in decades and take no medication.    

That is why I am so against ECT.  My Depression was as severe as it gets.  It was totally cured because my psychiatrist understood the mechanism by which it had come about.  Any psychiatrist who doesn't similarly understand and can do similarly is one who is incapable of learning from those more learned and who has no genuine regard for their patients.  That some may say they have benefited from ECT I would seriously question.  Perhaps they have a sub-conscious desire not to be subjected to it again and instinctively say it was beneficial.  

I know what psychiatric treatment in the hands of a skilled specialist can do.  As I look about me though, I see others' experiences are not the same as mine.  THAT is my complaint about the system.  

I am currently going through a very difficult time - beyond anything I have previously experienced and it had over-whelmed me.  Instinctively I broadly sought help but found the system had degenerated so much in the years since I was part of it that despite going from one ineffective source for assistance to another, I was not being helped at all.  Not even being understood!  I am now trying to help myself.  I have been well-trained in doing so and so, turned here to see if I could regain my direction, take a look around at what others are experiencing and perhaps have some input which others may find relatable - even helpful.  

[Historylover]

@Whitehawk   It would be wonderful if we could take our measure of the mental health system by who is being 'helped'.  But that is not the issue, and it would be worse than naive to assume it to be. 

It is the people who are NOT being helped, who are falling through the cracks, whose condition not only doesn't improve but deteriorates for want of competent treatment.  Those who are on a repeat cycle of ineffective treatments, drugs, consultations, who put their trust in the professionals because they assume they know better than they do - only to find no help is forthcoming.

It is also unhelpful in bringing this soul-destroying system to account if when people who speak with experience and broad observation bring just a few of its shortcomings to the fore, that they are being told that the system is helping some people.  'Some people' is simply not enough.

It has become nothing but a business and a matter of keeping appointment books filled.  Making money.  Maintaining the status quo.

[Historylover]

@chibam   Firstly I must respond by saying that if I was able to use quotations I would be better able to respond more broadly to your posts. 

I must clarify that my comments about billing by doctors - which has no oversight - had referred to GPs - not to my ex-psychiatrist who had trained me to never accept such dishonest practices.  People assume that because they are GPs they are honourable.  

That said, I was most interested in the video you posted.  

This post will be short.  I can't add much to what you have said as it would simply affirm what you are saying.  And talking for the sake of it.

[nashy]

Hi there @Historylover thanks for sharing your story. I was incredibly moved by your mention of your previous practitioner who "re-built" you. How incredible, it sounds like you had amazing rapport together and it was a complete game changer in your life. We're also very happy to hear he had a deep understanding of trauma, this is very important. With regards to your comments around ECT, as per forum guidelines we need to be careful that our posts are not dissuading others to use services or suggest that they're somehow wrong if they find certain services/therepeutic modalities helpful. This includes ECT. A few forum members have found this helpful, but we definitely hear and can understand in your case it was not - we're sorry for the experience you had and can understand you're keen to help others off the back of that. If anyone wants to learn more about ECT we'd recommend reading over this fact-sheet.

[Historylover]

@nashy   Again - misunderstood.

I did not experience ECT  and would not.  I was simply communicating my thoughts on it to @chibam.  It is my - I would consider - learned opinion - and that of my most learned ex-psychiatrist - that it is an unnecessary procedure to subject any body/person to.  Any psychiatrist who considers it appropriate for the treatment of Depression has little - to no - understanding of the workings of the human mind or how to gently, carefully heal it.  

I guess if others have had a 'good' experience of ECT perhaps they should not be  implying to others that they should try/consider it?

'Good' being subjective, of course.  I always consider it necessary to evaluate these matters for myself rather that just take another's appraisal of it.  Appraisal always depends on the ability to assess without bias, and with the necessary level of education and independence.  

I would also consider it appropriate to be able to also consider that there are those, such as myself, who would not allow my loved/dear one to be subjected to it and that there are those who should be able to access and assess my opinion.