Lived Experience Forum

[BlueBay]

I understand @Former-Member

and feel for you. I still struggle with my childhood sexual abuse. 

❤️ BB 

[Appleblossom]

Its fine to take your time. @Former-Member

I swept my abuse under the carpet for 50 years. 

It took a social worker to ask how would I like one of my students to experience that.

It effects the core of our being - faith and trust.

My mother was the biggest betrayer though not actually abusing.

Nor is it easy to write.

Its best to go gently with yourself about it.

[BlueBay]

@Appleblossom 

❤️❤️ This is one of the toughest topics to talk about. Snd mothers who don't accept or want to know about their daughters who were sexually sbused. It hurts. It takes time to heal if we ever heal. I still cry at the loss of my childhood. 

@Former-Member Take your time lovely 

we are here for you. 

Sitting with you. Hugs. 

@saturnzoon Hugs to you too 

BB xxxooo

[Owlunar]

Hi @Appleblossom

I read this a while back and thought about it before I replied

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@Appleblossom wrote:

Part of the reason the church has got itself in so much hot water over the sex abuse is vague airy notions about forgiveness culture.

The "social" work needs to be done. Its varied and manifold.  Often forgiveness can mean a perpetrator continues. 

I see the aim to be free of the negative effects of trauma. Some of the biggest pushers of forgiveness have damaged others and been unforgiving in themselves. 

Our souls, morality and sexuality are intertwined.

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I really thought about forgiveness hard - I have had church people give really floppy definitions of it - and I think it is not what it seems to be - it's something harder and different from popular belief

So - reading philosophy and linguistics has some purpose - but it took more than morphology to work it out - 

I think forgiveness and tough love have a lot in common - with tough love we love the person but not their behaviour - and when we "forgive" a person - we begin a process of give and take and thinking about it and waiting to see what happens and it is not an easy path at all - rather it is one of the toughest things we will ever do I think and we do it for ourselves - not for the person we "forgive"

My mother is not off the hook because I have forgiven her - I am not casting the first stone by any means but if I continued with that analogy I would be tossing that stone up and down in my hand and telling my mother she had made big mistakes and she could continue with her nasty behaviour but I was not involved - I had moved away and beyond her,

Even so now and again someone will tell me to "forgive" her and this brings the idea that perpetrators get away with what they do and the evil can continue but no - not the way I see it - I can't change the other person - only myself - and I can protect myself

You are right - religious thought distorts the word - there is not quick and easy path through forgiveness - it means growing a hide about that person and their behaviour - and I speak from experience - it took me decades to remove myself from the toxic environment - and I had to get used to paying the price of leaving other people behind too

I wish I could explain this better because I know I don't hold bitterness as do other members of my mother's family - whatever started happened generations ago in a different country - and it didn't reach my daughter - it stopped with me in my branch in the family

So there is still a puzzle Apple - our forgiveness of someone does not stop their contamination of other people's lives - but all we can do is clean up our little bit of the world - I am so relieved to be rid of my mother and that didn't happen when she died - it happened in a process before and after that and I am probably still dealing with it

But I see her as a small and damaged person - needing pity -  I think I could see that when I was a small child

Thanks for making me think a little Apple

Dec

[Former-Member]

Dear @Appleblossom @Owlunar @BlueBay @saturnzoon

I would like to thank you all for your openess and for sharing your experiences, because I know it is incredibly difficult for you too.

'Forgiveness' I am not at a point where I could think about forgiving my abusers. I am still trying to accept the abuse happened and forgive myself for letting it happen, but I don't think that's what I am supposed to do, I think I need to accept that I was little and there was nothing I could do. Then I need to think about how I want to deal with my parents and family and if I want to forgive them for not noticing, for letting me down, for letting it happen to me for so many years, and there were so many signs.

I haven't told my parents what happened to me when I was a child and I still haven't told them, I don't even know if I want to tell them. 

@Owlunar how did you forgive your mother? I like that you were able to move on and I agree on family of origin. I am trying to see my family of origin as little as possible or not at all. I just read your last message, I like how you mentioned, we can only clean up our own little world. 

I am so sorry @BlueBay that your parents did not believe and protect you! I am angry that the process is made so hard for us to report abusers, as they can continue to abuse. The emotional and financial burden of dealing with abuse and getting support lies on us, and the abuser, who is a criminal, can just shrug it off. Then my anger turns into sadness because I feel the same hopelessness and helplessness I felt as a child. Frightened for the rest of my life.

@saturnzoon it is terrible you still might have to face your abuser. Can you think of a way to keep yourself safe, when 'an emergency' happens? Like stay with a family member you feel safe with?

@Appleblossom I too had the abuse tightly tucked away for 30 years. I didn't even think it was relevant what happened in my childhood and dismissed my own history. Then I had my first severe flashback, then it took me another few years of fiercly trying to cope and to tuck it away again, before I finally asked for help. I asked for help for adult problems, maybe some issues from my adolesence, but took a while longer before I even mentioned the abuse. I am still trying to understand the impact abuse and negligence had on my development and my view of the world.

As for my own answers to my questions. I haven't charged or forgiven my abusers, I could only charge one family member, as the others are now unknown to me. I am trying to discontinue the relationship with that famaily member, but it is very much intertwined with other family relationships. 

I haven't share the abuse with my parents. And I don't know if I want to, other times I just want to scratch their eyes out and scream 'where were you????' I am unsure how and if I want to continue a relationship with my parents. 

I think at the moment I have too much work to do with myself and trying to stay alive through the process. I find everything in my life overwhelming.

[Appleblossom]

@Former-Member I think you have stated your prioirities clearly.  Sort yourself out and what you need to make something of your life.  Set limits on contacts.  Work out the rest later, when you have stable roof and life path .. within reason ... lol

@Owlunar Can talk about this later ... I think premature forgiveness can be dangerous.  I forgave genuinely saw everybody's struggles and circumstances.  That can be freeing ... but ...

Yep @BlueBay There is something weird about many mother's reaction to the sex abuse of their daughters ... very sad and often confused.

I am flat out this week.  Getting a life.

Take Care ALL

[Former-Member]

Have a good week @Appleblossom

[Owlunar]

Hi @Appleblossom

I agree with the concept of premature forgiveness - a person has to know what they are about when they forgive

During the process of forgiving my mother I told her I was not going to put up with her behaviour any longer and wasn't going back - and I didn't go back

And I don't feel guilty about that - and the whole process was very hard

And I am pretty sure I have moved a long way into the process because I feel so much better about it - no need for revenge - no need to keep hashing about it in -

Yet it still makes me feel sad but I know I didn't have more than a young child's role in all of this

btw - I do not tell people to forgive the person who abuses them - or causes them grief - that's not my role - I am only saying I believe I have managed it

It's a really hard thing to do - and I am sure the process is different for everyone

Dec

[Owlunar]

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@Former-Member wrote;

@Owlunar how did you forgive your mother? I like that you were able to move on and I agree on family of origin. I am trying to see my family of origin as little as possible or not at all. I just read your last message, I like how you mentioned, we can only clean up our own little world. 

Hi @Former-Member

Forgiveness is not easy - if anyone tells you to forgive someone for what that someone has done to you - well - that is not the place to start - it begins with the need to understand that person for what they did and I had to find out everything I could about my mother and work out what was wrong in her life that cause her to be physically and emotionally abusive

After my mother died I asked my father's brothers what they knew - and I spent a lot of time meditating and remembering everything I could about her - and finally went to the War Memorial and found out everything I could about her father - and this last was incredibly enlightening - my grandfather was not at all the man I had heard about - he was an ordinary Joe Blow - that was really something

So without going into details - I saw my mother for what she was and the process that started years before seemed to coalese and although the process of forgiveness may not be complete it is well on the way - she no longer haunts me and I feel sorrow for her and the life of narrow thinking and lack of self-control and codependence led her into a dark world that was too much after my father died and left her in a place that seemed to me to be dementia but no one has ever told me

Part of my process included looking at my role in my mother's life - I am one of the world's Ugly Ducklings but there were enough people in the family giving me a good impression of myself I was not forced into that role for my whole life. I can see that my mother had no idea of the spirit of the being she found in her nest - I was too much for her - too clever - the protective child over the younger one - the child who didn't persistently ask "Why" without waiting for the answer. I asked "How" when I really wanted to know and she couldn't answer. I was under her skin from an early age and even after I learned not to provoke her there were times when she moved onto my turf and I told her whatever I told her and stirred her nastiness - I figured it out but still did it from time to time.

Okay - as an adult I did learn better than to provoke her but as a child I had no responsibility - I was born at cross purposes. Now I see she for what she is and when it comes to God's forgiveness - I read your post earlier in the afternoon - I had to think about it and found this

God knows everything about us and we are forgiven - and so I think the process I started without thinking about that was finding out all that I knew and I don't tell people to forgive others - that is an individual process and will happen if the time is ever right - after all - I am not forgiving anyone for war-crimes - just my mother - and after all is said and done - for most of us - our mother is the hardest person to forgive - I just thought about that

But during the last 24 hours I have thought a lot about those two girls who interferred with me when I was just a small child - why have they just fallen into a place in my memory when I see one of them in particular as nasty, cruel girls. 

I find that hard to know because I don't have much of a memory about that - all I can think of is that it went back onto my mother because that day my mother had left me with them - and then she punished me for what they had done. I never trusted them and kept away from them and they are just people in my memory. Apart from this I don't think I need to go there

Except for this - from what I have read in this forum about abuse - it seems to me that the rejection of the mother is more of a problem - it seems to me to be worse  than the abuse which was so horrific.

But forgiveness - that is really hard - not something to happen because it is suggested or we read it somewhere or we hear about it in a sermon. It comes from a need within us to be free from the haunting of a person who is facing their own life whether they are aware of it or not. 

I forgave my mother because I wanted to be free of my memories. Well I still have the memories and sometimes they hurt but my mother was a really damaged person and whatever I think about, remember, dream even - I have removed myself from her and what she did - I don't want to carry that around and I don't

Dec

t

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[Faith-and-Hope]

Good morning @Former-Member 

I haven’t suffered the same sort of abuse as you have.  I cam across someone in my childhood who I can now recognise was “grooming”, and I didn’t like his behaviour, and understood that his intent was wrong ..... he was the husband of my piano teacher and I began to walk twice the distance home from school to avoid walking past their house and encountering him.  I feel for you, and others, who fell victim to such snakes so badly .....

My struggle to forgive came as a result of abuse of a different nature from my early adult years, and it was in a form that compromised almost everything about my life and my relationships.  I suffered under it for some time before realsing, not how to fight back because to do that would have destroyed my own sense of integrity .... but how to raise boundaries that prevented them from doing what they were doing .... and it compromised my relationships in the process.  My thought was that they were already compromised, so I had nothing left to lose.

Can you work with a counsellor to create personal boundaries around those who hurt you by neglecting the abuse ?  It’s a way to have a relationship with them, but it is limited, and controlled by you.  This can form part of a path to healing, helping you feel less defenceless and helpless.  A counsellor can help you understand that principle and how it works better than I can, but it is like an emotional shield.  A mod here once referred to it as “Teflon coating”.

Next, within the context of forgiveness, this is what I have learned .... less deep and painful issues we can learn to ride over or go around, and manage relationships with those who have hurt us.  The most deep and painful things, we don’t have the power to forgive .... that forgiveness has to come from God, not us ..... so what is our part ?  Offering them up to God for him to forgive.  That can feel very strange, as though what they have done doesn’t count, but in fact it does .... it counts to God, and He will take care of them His own way .... so the giving of them to Him relieves us of the guilt of struggling with the forgiveness issue .... it’s not ours to give, and the responsibility of it is not ours .... it is only ours to “disown” them to Him.  It’s is agreeing to take them off our case.  It also means being free to avoid them in any way you can, but hopefully with thoughts of  “you are no longer my problem and not entitled to be a part of my life”.

It doesn’t mean what they did doesn’t matter.  It absolutely does.  But passing the weight of forgiving them to God, and whatever He chooses to do with / about their transgressions is similar to police taking a perpetrator into custody, only on a spiritual level,  They will answer to Him.

I hope that makes sense.  This outlook on faith and forgiveness made a world of difference to me.  Feelings eventually emerged in me that were far more neutralised towards the person / people who were emotionally abusing me, and I was able to stay in the same circles, even have a relationship with them, but it was perfunctional ... businesslike .... functional according to what needed to be done, but nothing much more.  With emotional shields in place.  This became possible, although In passing them to God for forgiveness, I wasn’t obliged to continue with the relationships if I didn’t feel able to, or they didn’t serve / support me in any way / remained too painful.

I hope this helps in some small way @Former-Member and anybody else here, but please remember, a small child, even a middle-aged child, is never responsible for the actions of a perpetrator .... you were in no way responsible, and your inner child needs to be told that repeatedly.